How to Make Money as a Developer Without Needing a Degree - vimarshk https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/devzoo ====== andkon It's possible that most of these folks would have found the same path had they been lucky enough to have attended one of the major tech schools, but instead the deck was stacked against them because they didn't. Some folks are just better off if the barriers to entry were higher for them. That's fine, but it means they're playing a zero-sum game where more good people can't win by doing what they do. ------ paulhauggis Just as long as you're working for a startup, you can always find a job with the company that pays you enough to live. Just my opinion, but someone with a $30k paycheck and no degree is far more likely to stay in a job longer (because you can't just quit/get fired because of financial reasons). My friend quit his well-paid programming job when he started a family and has made some bad choices in the past few years. He is now making minimum wage at a company that doesn't pay overtime (which isn't fair, but I guess that's better than nothing). ~~~ doug1001 >"Just as long as you're working for a startup, you can always find a job with the company that pays you enough to live." No, that's not always the case; companies do sometimes go bankrupt, go out of business, etc. Or they fire half their staff. Then, without benefits or seniority, how does a lesser-paid person find another job? Even if the market isn't saturated with senior folks who were laid off or fired? Isn't it risky to bet your entire career on a single company? And isn't it possible that a company you rely on for your livelihood could go bankrupt? ~~~ SketchySeaBeast > Or they fire half their staff. Or they just lay off half their staff. ------ eberkund I see this as kind of a problem with a lot of people looking for financial success. They just don't want to work hard enough. In reality it comes down to "hard work is the best shortcut to financial success", you have to hustle to be successful, but if you have the perseverance and discipline, it doesn't have to be some kind of marathon, it doesn't have to be "9-5 job" work. I work a lot, but not every single day, and when I'm having a day off, I'm usually working on my side projects or learning something new. It helps a lot if your goal isn't to "make money" though. If your goal is to "make $X in the next 3 years", that's something that takes a lot of effort to just make happen and I wouldn't personally use my savings and risk spending time off doing something like that. If your goal is to buy a nice car and house, "work hard" is basically "find a job where you can do 8hrs a day for $15/hr and do it consistently". Of course that's not how the game is played, but many people who think they want to "make money" don't realize that's how the game is played. They want "X", wherever "X" is, but most people aren't willing to put in the hours to get it. ------ pokstad > If you don’t have a degree, then you’re probably working multiple jobs while > you build your first startup. > Most people have been able to find that initial small job while bootstrapping > their project, or find some time to make extra money on the side. > In reality, most people work a day job and some other part-time work (I've > done 3-6 hours/day of work on multiple projects), while I managed a couple > other projects and worked on the side. > No, I don’t feel I’m missing out, nor do I find that work to be terribly > “boring.” It sounds like he is saying this is no way to make money. The only way to do that is build multiple startups. The idea that most people don't have any choice to build multiple startups because they need money is simply false. It sounds like this is why he's complaining about the lack of passion, etc. He is saying if everyone just stops complaining and quit complaining and really tried they could make great startups. It's not realistic to expect that you can spend your time on something else. My parents raised a family and didn't get a degree. They got one after I left the house. Why? Because it was there and people did it. It's a choice. This should be obvious. I think the reason startups fail is because people put up with so much bullshit from big corporations that when they come out with a successful startup people just say "wow, they actually have a good idea" and jump onboard. Or they do it, but then don't have the passion and they don't try to improve on the idea over time and it just fades away. And I know this because my parents were there and so were all of my older family members that I knew. They all owned their own businesses that they ran into the ground. That's why they're no longer with us. It's not the "passionate hard workers" it's just a broken startup process that needs to be fixed. ~~~ james_s_tayler The article is not from the guy who made Dropsend and he's just explaining his startup. No sense in assuming that all "most people" means is the OP. I agree with your sentiment, most startup founders are a little delusional and unfocused. But I don't think that's a bad thing. You're not going to make your first successful startup if you can't focus and deliver a product that does what you said. I've seen it with my own eyes and as a founder. But that's OK, because it's a very easy problem to solve. But you have to want it enough. ~~~ pokstad The guy who made Dropsend is also the one who made a series of products to generate leads for his first startup so he could pay for more courses to get his degree. He did not make his first startup first. Dropsend came _years_ after he had a degree and years before he had a great idea for his startup. He had a job while in college that he built into a good income and that has sustained him through the years. He also didn't get his first startup off the ground and then work on another one. This is a very common pattern. People who get good degrees without knowing how to make money, then try to build multiple startups, before they know how to build one successful business. All of this is because of their attitude. They have no idea about the process. They just have this naive view that it's easy to figure it all out. And I don't blame them for believing that. But the truth is you need to be aware that the game isn't easy. So you have to be realistic and understand the process. ~~~ james_s_tayler The guy who made Dropsend may have gone through something similar, but I'm not him and I can't speak on his personal business. I know it's _possible_ to make a successful startup without the usual degree. I know it's possible to make a successful startup without an education in CS. I know it's possible to build a successful startup without even starting a business in your life (I started working in business at 16 with no degree and built a multi-million dollar business by 27). The reason I have a degree is that I was very serious about it. I was trying to do something. I was going to get a degree no matter what. It did suck in many ways, but it was important. I do recommend that people get an education. I just suggest that it is better to view your education as preparation for the real world. I could write a book about my early 20's and how I did it all wrong and had to learn my lesson the hard way and now know how to do it all right. But this isn't HN. ~~~ pokstad You are getting down voted. It’s hard to hear people arguing about what people should do with their time. If you have to spend so much time convincing people not to do something, then you aren’t talking about a topic you want people to take seriously. So I’ll bow out and let you get on with your day. I’m sure you’ll find better uses of your time than convincing me of the errors of my ways. Thanks. ~~~ james_s_tayler Yes, it's hard to hear people preaching to others about what they